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The VHC Blog

This blog is meant as a discussion forum for participants in the Y-DNA project the Värmland-Hedmark Cluster. The blog will also be used to post news and general information about the project, as a complement to the newsletter that comes out now and then.

​The oil painting pictured on the left is from 1924 and shows the ferry across the river Klarälven in Ransäter, Värmland. The artist is Gumme Åkermark (1847-1927). Source: Värmlands Museum (public domain mark 1.0)
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Can We Reject the Hypothesis That A3 Lived on the British Isles?

1/2/2021

5 Comments

 
From one of the project participants, I received the comment that I have copied in below. The background is that I, in the newsletter (No. 4, p. 9), was agnostic about the direction of the migration between Scandinavia and the British Isles.
 
“As I read your hypotheses, I thought I would respond on one point.
 
The subclades of our genetics are very rare in Ireland. Even U106, a fairly ancient and widespread subclade, only represents 6% of Ireland’s population. The downstream mutations from U106 are even rarer.
 
The hypothesis related to our genes originating from Ireland would be a very small probability. I believe the probability the subclades originated in Scandinavia is very high. Based on FTDNA data, our downstream subclades were heavily involved in the colonization of East Anglia and Cumberland within the British Isles.
 
 In Normandy, we settled late (around 1025 ad.) in the Cotentin Peninsula. There was a genetic survey done by the U of Rouen which concluded the population in the Cotentin was from Denmark by way of Ireland. In 1014, Brian Boru defeated the Hiberno-Norse in Ireland at Contarf. Many left and emigrated to the wild west of Normandy, wrestling the land away from the Bretons.
 
As I mentioned, the names in Scandinavia have a perceptible Irish influence (Nial, Pers, etc).”

 
Reading this, I realize that I have been unclear about one thing in the newsletter: When I talk about the possibility that the ancestors A3 and A4 lived on the British Isles, as opposed to Scandinavia, that does not amount to a claim that no one of A3’s ancestors lived in Scandinavia. That is, hypotheses H2a-c in the newsletter are fully consistent with, for example, the SNP Z18 (which is upstream of A3 and downstream of the SNP U106) having its origin in Scandinavia. The ancestor A3 lived relatively recently (380 BC – AD 770), whereas the SNP Z18 is estimated to have occurred much earlier than that (4300 BC – 3300 BC).
 
Indeed, the evidence that we have available seems to indicate that, for certain lineages, there have been multiple migrations, back and forth, between Scandinavia and the British Isles. One can see that by looking further upstream in the trees at YFull and FTDNA. The pattern of self-reported country flags suggests that migration between Scandinavia and the British Isles (in either direction) occurred also before A3 lived – to see this, look, for example, at FTDNA’s block tree at the level of R-S11601 or R-ZP30 (the two steps immediately upstream of R-ZP144).
 
So, I note that the data seem to show that, within the lineages we talk about, there were migrations between Scandinavia and the British Isles both before and after A3 lived. I also note that there are plausible stories for how migration from the British Isles to Scandinavia might have occurred (like timber trade, Vikings bringing back slaves, or Christian missionaries). I then conclude from those observations that I cannot rule out the possibility that A3 lived somewhere on the British Isles. That is, I choose to be agnostic about whether he lived on the British Isles or in Scandinavia (so not a particularly strong claim).
5 Comments
Dean
1/5/2021 08:00:58 am

Hi Johan,

Thank you for this explanation, I understand your point and there is written documentation of early Scandinavian invasions of Ireland. In the Annals of Ireland, they report a massive invasion of Norwegians led by a Dane called Turgensius (Turgar). This occurred 60 years after the death of Arthur or about 600ad, They captured all of the coastal areas of Ireland and colonized them. There were surely earlier invasions.

The Vikings were merchants as much as raiders. Wine was essential for medieval living, it served as an antiseptic when poured on wounds. Clothing, metalwork, furs, timber and slaves were commonly traded between Scandinavia and the British Isles from the Beaker / Battle Axe cultures onward (circa 3000 bc). The first U106 ancient remains was found in Denmark around this time.

Reply
Johan Lagerlof
1/11/2021 11:18:06 am

Many thanks for this information, Dean. At the moment I’m reading a popular science book on Vikings (the author is Martin J. Dougherty), which is a good introduction for me.

As for DNA tests of historical figures (a topic you mentioned in an email), I think we really need to have a bit more luck that we’ve had so far for that to help us. The ancient DNA people need to test the remains of someone who turns out to belong to our Y lineage and who relatively recently. You mentioned (in the email) the genebase.com website, although there I don’t seem to find the right page (maybe I would need to a subscription). In any case, if the historical people that would help us are tested, I would expect the relevant information to be posted in more public places, including academic journals (a Wikipedia page with some historical figures can be found here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_haplogroups_of_historic_people ). Ancient DNA results are also regularly uploaded to the YFull and FTDNA haplotrees. A recent study of Viking DNA was published recently, as I guess you might have seen (link to study: https://www.nature.com/articles/s41586-020-2688-8 ). In our part of the tree, there are a few such samples under Z18, but so far nothing in our part of Z18 (so, under S11601). Maybe later, if we’re lucky…

Reply
Dean
2/2/2021 01:00:44 pm

Hi Johan, It’s a subscription service, I’ll send you the info.

Dean Welch
2/9/2021 10:01:05 am

I use FTDNA groups to find other members of my subclade R-BY71612

There is a member of this group in Verdal, Norway (Johansson). This would offer two obvious explanations:

1. We (Walsh/Peadon) left Scandinavia after the mutational event (late); Johansson’s ancestors stayed
2. Johansson’s ancestors returned to Scandinavia after a stay in the isles (early migration)

I think this evidence points toward a my ancestors leaving Scandinavia after the formation of my terminal subclade, but anything is possible.

country flags link
7/25/2022 10:52:57 am

Amazing write up! Thanks for this post

Reply



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    Johan N. M. Lagerlöf

    This is a blog about a Y-DNA project called the Värmland-Hedmark Cluster. For some more information about the project, look here.

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